Cheese movement rules query.

[ChobitsCrazy]

I say you move 12" and that's it, I say if your too intent on winning and have to take every edge or bend whatever rule then there is really no point.

IT'S A FRIGGIN GAME, JUST PLAY IT.

[corsair14]

Note that the Throne of Skulls tournament ruled it as illegal. Thats an officially sanctioned GW event as far as I am aware.

[Enigmai]

Gentlemen, a term I use very loosely! (Just kidding)
This is an age old argument that dates back to the beginning of war gaming. Because most vehicles are longer than wide many have used this tactic to get a few extra inches of movement. It is true that GW has granted pivoting as a non-movement function so vehicles that have a limited view with their guns can adjust so they are able to shoot, a Vindicator comes to mind.

So here is my take on this movement tactic, I believe Games Workshop intended the pivot and movement as separate acts , however, pivoting followed by movement to be a single act and a vehicle’s movement is measured by exactly how far it has traveled from the point of the vehicle to a point on the table providing everything in between these two point constitutes a legal move.
So pick a point, I recommend a point on the hull closes to where you want to go and a point on the table as your destination and there you have it.

In my opinion gaining additional distance by changing the facing of the vehicle at any time during movement breaks the rules.

I hope this clarifies everything.

[Happy]

The truth is, even if you measure 12" from a common spot on the vehicle, the pivot gets him some extra inches. To be fair, let's assume you measure from the center of the vehicle. Even if that moves 12", rotating the vehicle to point "head on" to the enemy will result in an extra 1-2". Since the tactic is being used for disembarkation, this could be an important difference.

I find it a bit cheesy, but legal.

[corsair14]

That still counts as movement and if that is done then the vehicle has moved flat out and there is no disembarkation.

[exitusactaprobat1]

to chime in (unwanted I'm sure )
yes, this is a legal and commonly accepted tactic for DE (and other lists as well, like Land Raider lists).

all told, it nets you approximately 3.5 inches of gained first-turn projection (board control).
looking at it from an impact standpoint, it really only has a pronounced effect in one of the 3 main deployment types, pitched battle (unless your opponent is wholly unfamiliar with it).
look at it from;
pitched battle- in a pitched battle deployment you will see the opposing DE player set up first (if going second) and can deploy shallower/refuse flank. with the dep zones here, your DE player will have the greatest impact but least maneuvering room if you bubble-wrap/refuse flank. it's strong, but not a game breaker.
DoW- if the DE player deploys the allowed ONE troop(on 'port) and ONE HQ, in all likelihood it's dead in the water before it has any impact...so he/she probably hasn't even deployed (all off-table is best for a DE player here, so it is of no concern for DoW).
spearhead- easiest to deploy shallow and deny the first turn charge, with the potential for two turns of shooting if the DE player still sticks it out in the wind.

if you want to see it from a fairness standpoint, it's simply a function of the game that ALL armies can utilize, just some better than the other...and from the DE perspective (with the loss of 'I always go first if the attacker' from 3rd/4th ed) helps compensate for the fragility of their vehicles...seriously, vehicles you can use a spitball to bring down.
it grew more out of sacrificial forward 'cover providing' units that survive the opposing alpha-strike (when seized upon, which can be a complete death-knell for a deployed DE player) than any true game-unbalancing meta-manipulation 'I has moar powah' mentality.

it is shocking, and wholly disheartening, if you are caught off-guard by it...but a fairly easily accounted for tactic ONCE EXPERIENCED.

honestly, some of the best DE tactics involve null-deployment...and if full reserves, leads to relatively short/dull games in which one player twiddles his thumbs while the other gleefully grins awaiting his wave of doom...
so for fun, which would you rather have;
a full game, with both players duking it out all 5-7 turns, or
a 3-4 turn game where only one player controls the tempo?
(the latter is far more common if this common, basic tactic for DE is removed)

if you want to 'house-rule' it, that's up to the consensus...but keep in mind, with the 5e functionality wholly developed by the time this 'dex arrived, the units are likely 'costed' with these functions in mind...and any alteration to the core function can overcost these units.

[corsair14]

Depends on how you look at the rule whether its legal or not. Try it against me and I will not voluntarily play you again as it is cheating. Your pivot CANNOT take you farther than your max allowed movement. That is absolutely ILLEGAL. Pivoting is part of the movement phase and as such is affected by the max move regardless of if it happens after linear move is complete, viewing otherwise is ludicrous and I play a DE army.

@Mike- Nice to see you are still alive out there! Hows the weather?

[Enigmai]

First off, Hey Andy good to hear for you as well. If you take a point on the vehicle to start the measurement and then measure to a point on the table, the destination, then there is no additional distance travels because of shenanigans with pivoting. But after reading the rules in more detail, although my technique would resolve the issue it is not how the rules are written.

Second, Hey Mike, glad you still live! Good point. Deployment is still important part of the game. If you deploy per the situation then you can mitigate this movement tactic.

Last, the best way to solve this is to go first!

[Haf]

So I wrote out a who long thing about this... then I realized, Gwar from Dakkadakka forums covered how RAW (rules as written) would look using Vassal. This is what movement should be: (pictures are worth a thousan words)


http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/8661 ... samele.png

The option A and B thing are about the actual discussion on the forum, which if anyone wants to look at is found here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/po ... 94492.page

Warning: VERY LONG DISCUSSION - but gist of it is, both types of movement net the exact same result even though one looks like it gives an unfair advantage while the other doesn't LOOK like it does.

Here is the veiwing of Dark Elder raiders and such...


http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/3959/diagram.png

Now this is direct measurement and pivoting from the center which, like exit says, is "legal" per RAW. This seems to be the main debate over these forums and hopefully you can see with these pictures that it IS legal, but shady. This is not the "slide" that people consider cheater, I'll try to find a picture of that or if not make one myself to show what is. Just remember, PIVOT IS FROM THE VEHICLE'S CENTER POINT, nto anywhere else.

P.S. - I didn't create those vassal pics, but if I had, I wouldn't allow any part of the hull to pass deployment line, including the side sponson (from the land raider pic, OR the back wing from the raider). Gwar from dakkadakka forums created this and those guys tend to be heavy on the rules lawyer side, hence why they don't consider the side sponson as part of the hull. Either way, hope this clears it up as per RAW. Per RAI (rules as interpreted), I'd like to think that it's an overall move, but I can't claim to know how to say that for sure as I display it better on the table.

*edit* didn't realize it cut off half the picture so you can see the full thing in the link under the pic.

[IPurify]

I think this supports my argument. Thank you Chris. With great power comes great responsibility, and I will not exploit this power consistently.

Edit: Change what I just said to I will make sure i will never do this tactic no matter how legal it is. I learned my lesson on trying to cheese through the rules through the greetings of "stop cheating Shane" consistently.